Curse

Agent Mold3r · Jul 10, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Should someone get banned for kicking everyone out of a guild?

On one side he/she is putting the players in "distress" and making them unable to enjoy the game.

But on the other side, its the officers right to kick anyone he wants.

What do you think? Ban or no?

Miral · Jul 10, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

no... if the guild can't trust their officers thats an internal problem, not anet's problem *shrug*

Etta · Jul 10, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

No, it's the guild leader's fault for making the guy an officer. It's not an officer right to kick anyone, just because he/she can do it doesn't make it right. How many times have we seen this kind of thing happen? Think long and hard before making someone an office.

Omniclasm · Jul 10, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Just make everyone an officer. Nobody can kick each other, and everyone can invite people when they want. Leader still has total control over everything.

candyman_sb · Jul 10, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Exactly the same thing hapened to my guild and to an other one from my alliance. 80+80 members lost forever!!
We sent a lot of hate to that little bastard but thats all we can do.

zwei2stein · Jul 10, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyman_sb

Exactly the same thing hapened to my guild and to an other one from my alliance. 80+80 members lost forever!!
We sent a lot of hate to that little bastard but thats all we can do.

Hmm, something like that could actually croos line and be example of punishable griefing.

freekedoutfish · Jul 10, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

It depends....

1) Has the officer got a reason to kick them?
2) Is the officer kicked just one person, or the entire group to be childish?

....most of the time, there is good reason to kick someone. But there are the odd occassions when an officer will just kick someone out of spite, or a person is promoted and they purposely destroy a guild by kicking everyone.

Its not a bannable offence, because it doesnt breach any terms of use.

This is an issue for guildleaders. They need to trust the people in their guild, including their officers.

This is also a reason why it needs changed, how you kick someone. You should get a vote from all officers on whether someone is kicked.

To leave it in the contorl of one person is dangerious.

lacasner · Jul 10, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

I vote ban, 99% of the time there is no good reason for this, the person who did it wants to be a pain in the arse. Well, maybe im just biased cause this happened to one of the guilds im in x.x/

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 10, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

We had an officer do that to our guild last October. He kicked everyone but the officer's which can't be done. It was a planned attack for reasons unknown. I feel it should be a bannable offense because you cause a disruption of multiple peoples game play. It is hard to say it is the leader's problem when someone sets out to destroy a guild. The person builds trust over time knowing that the sole purpose is to cause grief to a group of people. It is a sad situation where a person's only goal is to disrupt and destroy, that is wrong and that person should be held accountable for their actions.

TheRaven · Jul 10, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Ultimately, the responsibility rests with the guild leader. Why did the leader promote someone to officer status that he could not trust? Unfortunately this situation happens all the time with "kiddie" guilds. The more established guilds don't have this problem because they don't promote officers from the "new member" pool.

I believe the leader should always have a hard copy roster of his membership. That way if the worst happens and a childish officer kicks everyone, the leader can simply re-invite all the members (after kicking the officer of course). Some members will probably decide not to return because of the incident, but they probably have good reason not to return. The leader acted irresponsibly by promoting that officer and the members may want to look for a more mature guild.

Should they be banned? I don't know. I think Arena Net would have a hard time distinquishing between legit kickings and childish behavior. Of course, I don't think children should be officers in a guild to start with, unless it's just a kiddie guild or just a guild with you and your buddies.

What about the following situation: You're in a well established Alliance. 7 guilds, 80+ members in each guild. You're basically a casual PvE guild, however the officers in the guilds are talking about the possibility of owning a town. You invite an 8th guild into the alliance that actively ABs a lot and spend a few weeks in officer discussion about how to make this happen. You start threads on the guild forums and the membership is excited about the prospect of trying for a town. As a first step, you decide to kick any member that has not logged onto guild wars for more than 1 month. After ample notice on the forums, you kick 60 members for this reason. Are you saying the officer that did this should be banned? How would A-net tell the difference?

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 10, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Should they be banned? I don't know. I think Arena Net would have a hard time distinquishing between legit kickings
difference?

If a person is with the guild for an extended period of time, builds trust with the leader and is chosen as an officer; then proceeds to kick all members of the guild and openly admits it was a planned attack, shouldn't they be banned?

Avarre · Jul 10, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

I'd say that issues like this are player issues that should be handled by players.

lennymon · Jul 10, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

ok... you guys are getting ban happy
this *is* Guild Wars. a GAME.
If a person infiltrates a guild and builds trust, gets promoted and kicks everyone in a planned attack, that's guild wars. If a person becomes an officer and doesnt kick everyone perhaps eventually becoming the next guild leader, that's also guild wars...
There's absolutely no reason to ban anyone for these offenses, since the only thing done was that they caught you with yer pants down and posted the photos on the interweb. If your guild leader had been semi-organized perhaps they would re-invite everyone?

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 10, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

ok... you guys are getting ban happy
this *is* Guild Wars. a GAME.
If a person infiltrates a guild and builds trust, gets promoted and kicks everyone in a planned attack, that's guild wars. If a person becomes an officer and doesnt kick everyone perhaps eventually becoming the next guild leader, that's also guild wars...
There's absolutely no reason to ban anyone for these offenses, since the only thing done was that they caught you with yer pants down and posted the photos on the interweb. If your guild leader had been semi-organized perhaps they would re-invite everyone?

We did get all our people back, but the point is it was a malicious action and not part of the game and I don't think it was intended to be part of the game. A guild is built on trust and if someone intentionally builds trust to destroy the guild it cannot be condoned. That person has affected my game play negatively and caused grief to many people which I belive is a bannable offense.

Avarre · Jul 10, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

We did get all our people back, but the point is it was a malicious action and not part of the game and I don't think it was intended to be part of the game.

Explain how player-guild interaction mechanics are not part of the game.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 10, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'd say that issues like this are player issues that should be handled by players.

May I ask how a player is to handle this situation. I see no way to do such a thing. ANET is the only power in the game to really control things like this. I would not ask for a complete ban, but a temporary ban just to let people know that it is an unacceptable practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Explain how player-guild interaction mechanics are not part of the game.

Is it acceptable to jump from guild to guild and do the same thing over and over.
I sure that it doesn't happen often, but it does disrupt peoples game enjoyment and should not be allowed.

Mordakai · Jul 10, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

May I ask how a player is to handle this situation. I see no way to do such a thing. ANET is the only power in the game to really control things like this. I would not ask for a complete ban, but a temporary ban just to let people know that it is an unacceptable practice.

But that could be misused as well...

Look, Anet doesn't have time to police every Guild officer in Guild Wars.

If this is a huge issue, get a petition to make Officers unable to kick people.

Problem solved.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 10, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But that could be misused as well...

Look, Anet doesn't have time to police every Guild officer in Guild Wars.

If this is a huge issue, get a petition to make Officers unable to kick people.

Problem solved.

Personally I would like to see that it would take 2 officers to kick someone, that way it would be less likely that 2 people would conspire to kick everyone. The only one who has the right to kick all members is the leader.

nbajammer · Jul 10, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

If a person joins a guild and builds up trust under false pretences (sp?), that's not the fault of the guild leader. People can carry any face that they choose, including giving false impressions of being honest, mature players. However, the Rules of Conduct dictate that this kind of behavior is in fact grounds for an account being marked up to and including banned. How so? Observe the following:

http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

"While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players."

A person who infiltrates a guild with the sole purpose of kicking everyone in it defrauds the leader by pretending to be a decent person, threatens the guild leader by some form of taunt (usually, not always), and causes distress to an extremely large number of guild members who suddenly find themselves removed from a guild that they love. Absolute and direct violation of this.

Now let's suppose your guild has 80 members as stated previously. John Doe joins the guild, and begins to gain the trust of the guild leader and its officers. Now, it takes time to do this, we'll say 6 months. 6 months later, John Doe has proven himself to be a worthwhile and productive guild member, so he is promoted to Officer by the leader. One day, the guild leader is absent (might be at work, on vacation, what have you). John Doe logs in and finds the leader is not on, and proceeds to kick everyone out of the guild for whatever reason he has for doing so.

From what all of you are saying, this behavior is permissable and proper in Guild Wars. If that's so, then why is it a direct violation of RoC #1? In this example, John Doe defrauded the leader by pretending to be a good person. The leader had no reason to suspect or even believe John was anything other than an ordinary player who really enjoyed being in the guild. Yet he caused a great deal of distress to 80 guild members who enjoyed being a part of the guild.

The following message post from a guildie back when we were sabotaged, modified to fit this example, shows you exactly why this kind of thing is and should be a bannable offense:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLG Guild Member

To summarize, John Doe violated Rule of Conduct #1: "While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players."

By intentionally sabotaging the guild and kicking out all of the members, he disrupted the game play of 80 other players (in this example). When this happens, the players were left confused, angry, and disturbed by the actions, and now must try to reassemble their community. They must now spend time, effort, and in the case of the officers and guild leader, in-game money to track down and re-invite all of the members that were removed. This detracts from their enjoyment of playing the game, as they must turn all efforts to rebuild what they have spent so much time (and money) to create.
John Doe did this maliciously and with absolute intent of causing stress.

I do not see why the guild should be blamed for trusting John Doe, when he obviously did everything he could to become friends with them just so he could mess with them. He should not be allowed to continue to just join guilds and corrupt them.

I snipped out irrelevant portions, and changed/removed names to fit within the case of this example. In case you are wondering, Anet DID do something about it. Probably nothing more than an account mark, but that put him one step closer to a ban.

This is not a clear-cut "Leader's Fault" type of problem. Any person can use the anonymity of the internet to keep a straight face even when their intentions are otherwise. And those who are determined enough to do so, will do so for any length of time. One cannot fault another for trusting someone when there was no reason to believe otherwise.

Vamis Threen · Jul 10, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I think it's a real shame when a young guild gets destroyed by an immature officer kicking everyone in a fit of pique, and this is unacceptable.

I think a spy from one high-level guild infiltrating another high-level guild, building confidence to the stage where they are elected officer, and then kicking all the members is different. I imagine this mostly occurs where guilds are directly competing for faction allegiance to control towns rather than GvG ranking (where it would just be vengeful and small-minded). In the case of faction allegiance, it's just part of the politicking and although disingenuous, adds depth to the game.

Sucks if you are the guild taking the hit, but then if you are the leader you need to make wise choices and have a long memory.